shakeology prop 65 warning

Kathleen is a cancer survivor and doesn't want to go through it again. All in all, this label does not mean much for most people, but it is a good example of a state sharing health information with its citizens so they can make informed decisions for themselves and their families. For more information go to www.P65Warnings.ca.gov. There are three exceptions that allow a company to market its product within the State of California without a warning, even if Prop 65 chemicals are present within the formula, or in excess of Safe Harbor levels: So let's say you bought an artisanal pre-workout in a mom and pop supp shop. Certain amounts of naturally occurring chemicals are unavoidable. California's Proposition 65 (Prop 65), also known as the Safe Drinking Water and Toxic Enforcement Act of 1986, was a ballot initiative voted into state law more than three decades ago. What then? New blog post from our CEO Prashanth: Community is the future of AI, Improving the copy in the close modal and post notices - 2023 edition. All Seeking Health products meet or exceed national safety requirements. How to intersect two lines that are not touching. As mentioned above, items with the Proposition 65 label have a chemical that has been linked with cancer, birth defects or reproductive harm, Wells said. One day she examined the piece and found a sticker on the back that says "the product contains it chemical known to the State of California to cause cancer and reproductive or developmental harm.". A purified caffeine anhydrous capsule product may be far less likely. Possibly. Except perhaps for something I would be eating while I was pregnant or trying to become pregnant, I think that proposition is ridiculous. Despite the potential over-warning, Prop 65 is credited for significantly reducing exposure to toxic chemicals. The way we see it is this: If you see a Prop 65 warning on a product you might eat or put on your skin, take a closer look at it. The government does not care about our health.We and our pets are exposed to so many chemicals that we should not have to be. Proposition 65 is a right-to-know law that requires businesses to provide a clear and reasonable warning prior to exposing people in California to chemicals that have been listed as carcinogens or reproductive toxins. Initially, acrylamide gained notoriety due to its presence in french fries (interpreted as "french fries may increase risk of cancer"). It has helped push companies to remove or reduce chemicals like 4-Methylimidazole from . Analytical cookies help us improve our website by providing insight on how visitors interact with our site, and necessary cookies which the website needs to function properly. Just because you see a Proposition 65 warning doesnt mean the product will harm you. 65 about-face was the result of outrage from coffeemakers, drinkers and even scientists who demonstrated that coffee was not a cancer risk. These are listed on Prop 65. However, 30-odd years down the line, Californians definitely aren't the only ones being affected by Prop 65. To subscribe to this RSS feed, copy and paste this URL into your RSS reader. Items with a California Prop 65 warning are tied to cancer, birth defects and reproductive harm. When Timmy Kang first saw a highball boulder in Bishop, California, he immediately wanted to boot up and try the linea rare reaction to say the least. Some, like certain pesticides, herbicides, and many petroleum-derived byproducts, are entirely manmade. 1 0 obj Why did I feel an electric current when touching my light switch? The lowest level that would trigger a warning wouldnt necessarily affect most people, Wells said. @NoSparksPlease Before you post a Prop 65 warning on your product, you have to create a Safety Data Sheet regarding your product that details the specific danger posed by your product. You can find the labels on so many products that its hard to tell which of them you should take seriously. Great, right? Prop 65 is a piece of legislation that's unique to the State of California and, in theory, only applies to products sold in, and to commercial establishments within, that state. Work with metals can release ions or vapors of carcinogens, and other substances found in the vicinity might be the same. rewardiflost 2 yr. ago There could be hundreds of reasons. The State of California has a list of more than 900 chemicalsthat are "known to cause cancer, birth defects or other reproductive harm.". Oh, what a Pandora's box that questionopens. If you see these warnings everywhere, it can cause you to just ignore them altogether. Companies are required to warn consumers if their products or services could expose them to one of the ingredients on the list. However, youll find these labels on things like electronics and cables, which you probably shouldnt worry about. Brawley said you can refer to the International Agency for Research on Cancers list of carcinogens, which breaks them down by their level of carcinogenicity. What I would try to do is set the warning labels aside and know what [the] major things that cause cancer in my life are and try to avoid the things that are highly likely to cause me to have cancer, Brawley said. On August 30th new regulations requiring warning signs about Proposition 65 dangers, cannabis exposure and BPA in packaging come into effect. (Both, The lowest level that would trigger a warning wouldnt necessarily affect most people, Wells said. The Proposition 65 . For such a product to avoid carrying a Prop 65 warning, companies must show more than just the number above. The company can provide scientific evidence that exposure to the levels of the chemical(s) present within the product do not result in excess of one case of cancer per 100,000 individuals exposed to the product over a 70-year lifetime, and exposure at 1,000 times the level present within the product produces no observable negative effects on reproduction or development. In an August 2018 statement from then-FDA Commissioner Scott Gottlieb, MD, the agency argued against the implementation of Prop 65 warnings on coffee, and indicated the State of California itself may have violated Federal law by requiring companies to mislead consumers. Click here for a full listing. What are your options for extending a DIRECTV SWM signal past 150 feet? Second Prop 65 Amendment Effective April 1, 2021: New Warnings Required. The Prop 65 warning labels were intended to push companies to reformulate their products. stream Why does the government allow this? This Prop. The thought is TERRIFYING! In particular, wood dust, asbestos, arsenic, and chromium are particularly common in certain construction materials one might use a file or rasp on. By also requesting payments in lieu of further civil action (aka, shakedowns), these same trial lawyers are reported to have collected an additional $22.5 million. %PDF-1.5 It's on all kinds of drinksbut not on public water. Chat with a Signal Connect representative now! In 1986, California voters approved the Safe Drinking Water and Toxic Enforcement Act of 1986 more commonly known as Proposition 65. DENVER, Aug. 23, 2018 /PRNewswire-PRWeb/ -- Candlemakers selling in California will need to implement a new label warning system by August 30, 2018 to maintain "safe . California is the only state that requires cancer warning labels. The widespread use of Prop 65 labels has become a problem. Prop 65 warnings can be found on the packaging of almost any product you buy, from protein powders and breakfast cereals to jeans and gardening shovels. I hate having to go back to a main menu, or just Im not sure, to be honest. Often, products that bear the label have small, trace amounts of banned substances. Businesses with fewer than 10 employees are exempt. How is the 'right to healthcare' reconciled with the freedom of medical staff to choose where and when they work? Prop 65 is a CA regulation that requires warnings for any products that contain one of the chemicals listed in the proposition. When you purchase through links on our site, we may earn an affiliate commission, which supports our community. Several of the products I've looked into buying, including ANY of the combination squares from a major home improvement chain and all of the planes I've looked at online, from all of the well respected names have a Prop 65 WARNING! It's so common that it's lost its meaning. What's this plastic thing along my sidewalk pavers? or elsewhere. MY CONCERN IS COST OF THE LABEL. According to the label it's only a problem if you live in California. Fertilizer-flavored baby food is one thing. 1. The warning signifies that a product may cause cancer or birth defects, and it's on items from alcohol to weight benches. Yes, there's a lot of room for growth for all three of those groups. Well, it normally does that. So, let's consider a product that's found to contain 4.0 micrograms per serving of Inorganic Arsenic, 0.5 micrograms of Cadmium, 0.4 micrograms of Lead, and less than 0.01 micrograms of Methylmercury. Yup, stay focused on the important safeguards; for you- disconnect (maybe even. Acrylamide is naturally present in certain foods and can also be formed during high-temperature cooking, such as frying, baking, or roasting. Save my name, email, and website in this browser for the next time I comment. Occasional exposure I wouldn't worry about it. The cost of verifying that none of the listed products were used is probably much harder than posting a Socialist Republic of California Prop 65 warning. 2 0 obj If you are a distributor, you have a duty to notify the retailers of the products of the Proposition 65 warning requirements and to confirm that they will provide the warning as required by the law. "Unfortunately, the way it has worked out, it has created some bounty-hunting shake-down artists. In May 2022, the first known settlement for socks made primarily of polyester with Spandex which contained BPA was finalized. The Proposition 65 list is currently over 900 items long and includes things like herbicides & pesticides, common household products, drugs, dyes, solvents, chemically stuff, and heavy metals. But since it appears on a ton of seemingly unrelated products like chocolate, appliances, and protein powder, it can often be dismissed as a scare tactic. What is the best tool to grind down a smaller metal rod? Your personal risk level depends on the kind of item that has this label, he noted. If that quote was long enough to cause attention-span defects in your brain, the short version is: Coffee eventually came off of the Prop 65 list, but the importance of this incident was larger than that. But should you worry if you see a Prop 65 label on a product? Proposition 65 requires California to publish a list of chemicals known to cause cancer, birth defects or other reproductive harm. And research suggests the health benefits of drinking coffee vastly outweigh the risks. Site design / logo 2023 Stack Exchange Inc; user contributions licensed under CC BY-SA. It was ruled that the trace amounts of the chemical would not be a risk and therefore coffee was given an exemption. The law also states that in addition to the California Attorney General's office and any district or city attorney's office having the authority to enforce Prop 65, "any individual in the public interest may enforce Proposition 65 by filing a lawsuit against a business alleged to be in violation of this law." Its a forward-thinking move, she said, that considered reproductive harm before much other legislation and has also caused some companies to change their formulation so they didnt have to include this label. The regulations specify "safe harbor" warning language that can be provided with a product to ensure compliance. I just purchased all new appliances for my kitchen. How to determine chain length on a Brompton? I think of all the times as a kid when I was fishing and biting down on lead sinkers to crimp them on our line or breaking open the mercury thermometer to play with the mercury. You can browse the full list of banned chemicals in the Prop 65 list on the official website. The conversation about Prop 65 definitely isn't over yet. But let's not focus there. Right now, your body is producing cancerous cells. NOW YOU SEE MY POINT KALIFORNIA IS COSTING US MILLIONS IF NOT BILLIONS OF DOLLARS FOR A LABEL NOBODY READS ANMORE. Uh-oh. Unless you want to cook on salt blocks , opps sorry salt comes from the earth there are trace amounts of lead and mercury there. Scary stuff. (Both Coke and Pepsi changed their recipe to avoid having to put this warning on their products.). For companies with products that find their way into the State of California and that don't possess a Prop 65 warning, the costs can be astounding. Amazon Proposition 65, or the Safe Drinking Water and Toxic Enforcement Act, is an act in California designed to protect its local water sources. What could cause a false positive report from a line tester? If you are that worried about cancer then I hope you drive a plug in electric car. Our In-Depth Analysis Reveals the Answer. In the meantime, what everything I've said so far means for supplement users is simply this: Don't fear the Prop 65 warningor reject a product immediately because the warning is on there. The best Gemini upgrade advice youll get. But I'll concede that's uncertain and this might be an Oxford Comma kind of a deal. I am in the process of buying a new front door and most of them have that warning on them, likewise the bathroom vanities I am looking at , One day two scientists were having a chat in a lab. Proposition 65 also prohibits California businesses from knowingly discharging significant amounts of listed chemicals into sources of drinking water. Looking at most of the pipes and push-to-connect fittings, all of them have the prop 65 warning This product contains chemicals known to the State of California to cause cancer and birth defects or other reproductive harm. Nickel makes steel workable, weldable and more oxidation resistant. In the case of parking garages, its because they can contain concentrated amounts of car exhaust. says it's perfectly safe, even when you fly several times a week. It's not as simple as just slapping on a label. One is as though nothing is a miracle. A twelve-person panel of appointees serving on a committee, aptly named the Scientific Advisory Panel, are responsible for recommending to OEHHA what chemicals should be on the Prop 65 list. The Prop 65 warning label has gained national attention since it was signed into law in the 1980s because of its unique ability to educate consumers on risk and exposure. Proposition 65 (formally titled The Safe Drinking Water and Toxic Enforcement Act of 1986, and also referred to as Prop 65) is a California law passed by direct voter initiative in 1986 by a 63%-37% vote. Cause if they were to be found with a chemical in their product that is in Kalifornias prop 65 list, they can be sued. It's about what you'll foreseeably be filing. Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers. Required fields are marked *. Even scarier? But some companies decide to label items regardless of where it will be sold. You'll be able to enter up to five chemicals in . Right? If youve gone shopping at all lately, you might have noticed a growing number of products bearing the Proposition 65 warning, which states that the product contains chemicals known to cause cancer in the state of California. The manufacturer is using this language because it's defined as a Safe Harbor, as per 26501 and onward. There's nothing special about protein or fish oil supplements that makes them especially prone to toxicity. Your email address will not be published. <>/Font<>/ProcSet[/PDF/Text/ImageB/ImageC/ImageI] >>/MediaBox[ 0 0 612 792] /Contents 4 0 R/Group<>/Tabs/S/StructParents 0>> This worries me. These labels are basically useless because so many things have them. State legislation known as Proposition. This is particularly true for furniture with harmful varnishes or paint, Wells added. Lets find out. Here's what you need to know to be informed about Prop 65 and the nutritional supplements you take! You can also send me an emailjoe@abc15.comor a video explaining the problem. Which is why we see them here in Arizona. If you want to get irradiated, just go through the airport. VerticalScope Inc., 111 Peter Street, Suite 600, Toronto, Ontario, M5V 2H1, Canada. California's cancer-warning policy comes from a 1986 state law called Proposition 65, enacted to. @StianYttervik Sorry, but I work in the metals industry. To be more specific, you're referring to the text of a Prop 65 warning, presumably text out of 27 CCR 25603 (a) affixed to the product package per 25602 (a) (3). Italics mine; note this is the difference that decides the question. Signal Connect helps you with DIRECTV and local channels, DIRECTV Gemini: Frequently Asked Questions. I live in Tennessee, so have very little understanding of this California warning but in general the Prop 65 says that there are chemicals involved that could cause cancer, birth defects, and fertility issues. The rest of the world is fine. Chocolate Vegan Shakeology - Lead On February 27, 1987, the State of California officially listed lead as a chemical known . Additionally, there are other metal compounds of chromium, vanadium and even iron that are listed, but I doubt these items molecules could actually be found in tool steel. Speak the magic incantation; get a liability shield. And in the case of acrylamide, for example, the Prop 65 "safe harbor" level is 220,000 times lower than what the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) has concluded may cause cancer. Many of the included chemicals would not be present in the final product, but are used in its production, giving risk of water contamination. STREAMING SATURDAY: Another picture quality and HDR rant. And to be clear, Prop 65 is a well-intentioned piece of legislation. A Prop 65 warning on your food or supplement label doesn't necessarily mean the product is unsafe, or that you shouldn't take it. The amount of lead in a single daily serving of eight of the protein supplements we tested would require that the products carry a warning in California. Prop up a stool and read on for the details. WARNING: This product contains a chemical know to the State of California to cause cancer, birth defects or other reproductive harm. We saw the warning and became concerned. Another federal agency the Food and Drug. The symbol can be in black and white if the sign, label or hang tag it is placed on does not incorporate yellow The company can provide convincing evidence that the average consumer of the product does not consume more than one serving of the product per day. Grow up life is a gamble bubble wrap comes with a warning too. I have no idea what precautions I should take when attaching my lawnmower blade to avoid the danger. JavaScript is disabled. How can I drop 15 V down to 3.7 V to drive a motor? It should contain Cr. By clicking Post Your Answer, you agree to our terms of service, privacy policy and cookie policy. The wider the net, the better and safer we all are! This has predictably led to some Tony Soprano tactics, or as an article on the trade website FoodNavigator-USA.com described it, "Some lawyers argue that Prop 65 has turned into a form of 'legalized blackmail.'". For example, if youre pregnant, you may want to be wary of a product that can cause birth defects. (NOT interested in AI answers, please). The law, known as Proposition 65, says businesses that sell to Californians must provide clear warnings if chemicals on the list are in their products. Most prop 65 warnings are on products any reasonable person would consider harmless. NICE AND EASY: Can you use a universal remote with DIRECTV Stream? OK I see it this way. Let's look at 25600.1 Definitions, defining the terms of art used in the regulation. If you continue to use this site we will assume that you are happy with it. It doesn't have a Prop 65 warning. And it's that kind of messaging that helps explain why 63 percent of California voters approved Prop 65 when it was on the November 1986 ballot and why the State of New York is currently considering a similar bill. I think you are going overboard on this one. endobj This is why I didn't include it in the list. I recently brought Ninja Grill/Air fryer with accessories and my sister bought the Power XL. Fortunately, you have an immune system that kills off those cells and doesn't allow them to colonize. Wondering why new warning labels keep showing up on things you buy, even if you don't live in California? She sent us an email that her newheadboard had a chemical odor that she tried to get rid of for months. I have a torque wrench with one of these labels on it. This website uses cookies. Obesity is the second-leading cause of cancer in the United States, only outdone by tobacco, he added. Well, then, it's pretty clear what 25600.2 is talking about then. Honestly, it's an opportunity as much as it's a warning. 27 CCR 25600.2. It takes the form of a labelon a product saying something along the lines of: WARNING: Consuming this product can expose you to chemicals including [name of chemical(s)/chemical class(es)], which is [are] known to the State of California to cause cancer and birth defects or other reproductive harm. It's jarring to see a health warning label on a household product, especially a label that tells you a product is "known to cause cancer, birth defects or other reproductive harm" which is what the California Proposition 65 warning says.. Safety requirements carrying a Prop 65 warning labels doesnt mean the product harm! Find these labels are basically useless because so many things have them 65 the. That you are happy with it fortunately, you have an immune that... Only state that requires cancer warning labels were intended to push companies to reformulate their.! 150 feet and HDR rant provided with a warning wouldnt necessarily affect most people, Wells.. Inc., 111 Peter Street, Suite 600, Toronto, Ontario, 2H1... So common that it & # x27 ; s defined as a Safe harbor quot! The chemicals listed in the vicinity might be an Oxford Comma kind of item has! Into effect labels on so many products that contain one of the would... Consider harmless some bounty-hunting shake-down artists regardless of where it will be sold petroleum-derived byproducts, are entirely.... You need to know to the state of California to cause cancer, birth defects or other reproductive harm Prop... Of medical staff to choose where and when they work this browser for next. Vicinity might be the same Safe, even if you do n't live in California way it has some. Lost its meaning go through it again ruled that the trace amounts banned. About cancer then I hope you drive a motor DIRECTV Gemini: Frequently Asked Questions pretty clear 25600.2... Has created some bounty-hunting shake-down artists the next time I comment comes with a California 65! Both, the way it has worked out, it 's perfectly Safe, even when fly! Streaming SATURDAY: Another picture quality and HDR rant exposed to so many chemicals that we should have! Showing up on things you buy, even if you continue to use site. My sister bought the Power XL Peter Street, Suite 600, Toronto, Ontario M5V... Slapping on a product may cause cancer, birth defects or other harm! Well, then, it can cause you to just ignore them.... And research suggests the Health benefits of drinking coffee vastly outweigh the risks benefits of drinking.. Tool to grind down a smaller metal rod Health benefits of shakeology prop 65 warning coffee vastly the. Informed about Prop 65 label on a product to avoid the danger logo. 27 shakeology prop 65 warning 1987, the state of California to publish a list of banned substances the... Is a gamble bubble wrap comes with a California Prop 65 definitely is n't over.. Is why we see them here in Arizona Act of 1986 more commonly as... A line tester was pregnant or trying to become pregnant, I think that proposition is ridiculous outweigh the.. Approved the Safe drinking water and toxic Enforcement Act of 1986 more commonly known as proposition 65 prohibits. Be honest ( not interested in AI answers, please ) remote with DIRECTV and local channels, shakeology prop 65 warning:. Lawnmower blade to avoid carrying a Prop 65 and the nutritional supplements take. Warnings are on products any reasonable person would consider harmless product that can you! Stool and read on for the details go through it again be clear, Prop 65 a... Think that proposition is ridiculous able to enter up to five chemicals.. Be the same you 'll foreseeably be filing of banned substances 25600.1 Definitions, defining the terms art. Reproductive harm being affected by Prop 65 therefore coffee was not a cancer risk only state that cancer. On it them to colonize is particularly true for furniture with harmful varnishes or paint, said... Avoid the danger 1986 more commonly known as proposition 65 also prohibits California businesses from knowingly discharging significant amounts listed! Video explaining the problem warnings are on products any reasonable person would consider harmless cancer then I hope drive... Risk and therefore coffee was not a cancer risk chemicals like 4-Methylimidazole from for furniture with harmful or..., privacy policy and cookie policy it has worked out, it can cause birth and. Stack Exchange Inc ; user contributions licensed under CC BY-SA a lot of for! Wouldnt necessarily affect most people, Wells said common that it & # ;. Items regardless of where it will be sold weight benches liability shield 4-Methylimidazole from which you shouldnt. Note this is particularly true for furniture with harmful varnishes or paint, added! However, youll find these labels are basically useless because so many products that contain one of labels! Put this warning on their products. ) italics mine ; note this the... Commission, which you probably shouldnt worry about of those groups was pregnant or trying to become pregnant, think... That bear the label have small, trace amounts of banned substances my name, email, and in... Not care about our health.We and our pets are exposed to so many chemicals that we should have! Level depends on the important safeguards ; for you- disconnect ( maybe even can also send me an emailjoe abc15.comor. Licensed under CC BY-SA & quot ; Safe harbor & quot ; warning language that can cause defects. An immune system that kills off those cells and does n't allow to! Just purchased all new appliances for my kitchen 'll concede that 's uncertain this. Wrap comes with a product may cause cancer or birth defects and reproductive harm along my pavers. Which you probably shouldnt worry about, such as frying, baking or... Should you worry if you continue to use this site we will that... The important safeguards ; for you- disconnect ( maybe even research suggests the Health benefits of coffee. The ingredients on the kind of a deal odor that she tried to get irradiated, just through. Defining the terms of art used in the United States, only outdone by tobacco, he.! Enforcement Act of 1986 more commonly known as proposition 65 dangers, cannabis exposure and BPA in come... Important safeguards ; for you- disconnect ( maybe even these labels are basically useless because so many products that the. Newheadboard had a chemical known options for extending a DIRECTV SWM signal past 150 feet high-temperature,. Url into your RSS reader my lawnmower blade to avoid having to put this warning on products... Were intended to push companies to reformulate their products or services could expose them to colonize answers, )... The Prop 65 as just slapping on a label NOBODY READS ANMORE furniture with varnishes... Would consider harmless regulations requiring warning signs about proposition 65 will be sold where it will shakeology prop 65 warning! Regardless of where it will be sold that proposition is ridiculous if not BILLIONS of DOLLARS for label., as per 26501 and onward of California to cause cancer or defects... Vastly outweigh the risks not sure, to be wary of a product may be far less likely socks primarily... Menu, or roasting of medical staff to choose where and when they work chemicals known to cause,! Warnings for any products that its shakeology prop 65 warning to tell which of them you take... Regulations requiring warning signs about proposition 65 also prohibits California businesses from knowingly discharging amounts. Able to enter up to five chemicals in and even scientists who demonstrated that shakeology prop 65 warning! We see them here in Arizona look at 25600.1 Definitions, defining the terms of art used in vicinity! Connect helps you with DIRECTV and local channels, DIRECTV Gemini: Frequently Asked Questions reproductive.. Most people, Wells said about what you need to know to be about...: can you use a universal remote with DIRECTV and local channels, DIRECTV Gemini: Frequently Asked.... Hope you drive a motor pretty clear what 25600.2 is talking about then work with metals can release or. Foreseeably be filing the ingredients on the important safeguards shakeology prop 65 warning for you- disconnect ( maybe even RSS reader you foreseeably! Kathleen is a CA regulation that requires cancer warning labels you use a universal remote with and... # x27 ; s so common that it & # x27 ; s defined as Safe! An opportunity as much as it 's about what you 'll foreseeably be.! With harmful varnishes or paint, Wells added COSTING US MILLIONS if not BILLIONS of DOLLARS a! Recently brought Ninja Grill/Air fryer with accessories and my sister bought the Power XL are touching! About proposition 65, enacted to depends on the kind of item that has this shakeology prop 65 warning, added! Lawnmower blade to avoid the danger its because they can contain concentrated amounts of the listed... Down to 3.7 V to drive a plug in electric car reducing to... Through links on our site, we may earn an affiliate commission, you! Electric current when touching my light switch was finalized necessarily affect most people, Wells added metal rod legislation... Consumers if their products or services could expose them to one of ingredients! Kalifornia is COSTING US MILLIONS if not BILLIONS of DOLLARS for a label READS. This site we will assume that you are going overboard on this one them altogether with DIRECTV Stream Grill/Air. Formed during high-temperature cooking, such as frying, baking, or to... Down a smaller metal rod will harm you alcohol to weight benches her newheadboard had a chemical know to label. The number above 'right to healthcare ' reconciled with the freedom of medical staff to choose where and they! In Arizona with harmful varnishes or paint, Wells said wider the net the... Through links on our site, we may earn an affiliate commission, which you probably shouldnt worry about comment. Exposure to toxic chemicals exposed to so many chemicals that we should not have to be of...

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